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[吉他教师杂志]约翰·威廉斯访谈录(一)

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发表于 2003-11-20 20:29:00 | 显示全部楼层

[吉他教师杂志]约翰·威廉斯访谈录(一)

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琴弦的选择,塞戈维亚的重要性及顶级独奏

——约翰·威廉斯(JW)与奥斯汀·普雷查德·勒维(APL)的谈话

    对古典吉他演奏家甚而全世界真正的音乐爱好者来说,约翰·威廉斯是无须介绍的。自1958年在维格摩尔音乐厅初露头角以来,他凭着汗牛充栋的唱片赢得了空前的欢迎,这些唱片既包括古典音乐曲目,也包括他参与创立的天空摇滚乐队的曲目。约翰和澳大利亚室内管弦乐团正在进行他的澳大利亚之旅,准备演奏罗德里戈的《阿兰湖艾兹协奏曲》和彼得·斯卡索普(Peter Sculthorpe)的一部吉他、弦乐和打击乐新作——《Nourlangie》。在此行之际,奥斯汀·普雷查德·勒维和约翰不无详尽地谈到了关于琴弦的选择、关于他众所周知的吉他比赛厌恶观、关于他和塞戈维亚的矛盾关系、关于他对年轻演奏家一代产生的技巧威力影响、关于他对吉他教育学的观点,以及他对巴赫《恰空》的狂热喜欢;其中许多人视《恰空》为他的代表作,通过顶峰级的音乐会演绎及唱片灌制,约翰树立了权威性影响。

AP-L: 约翰,从一个看似平淡但却为众多吉他演奏家感兴趣的问题开始吧,目前你的斯摩曼吉他是采用什么琴弦?

JW:目前,我正在使用达达里奥高音弦及低音弦,尽管这顶级弦比他们制作的标准顶级弦厚实一些,但我还选择用它,以使其演奏更厚重一点。我发现最大的问题如何是把低音弦弹准;例如,使用奥古斯汀红色弦时,我发觉第5弦有点单薄,而达达里奥弦更厚实些但却没有脆性(即当琴弦向更紧的方向运动时具有的特性)。另外一个问题是吱吱尖叫声,不论你对这个问题的认识程度如何,它总是存在的,尽管通过演奏者和琴弦制作家的共同努力可以使其尽量地减少。我喜欢达达里奥琴弦中磨光及半磨光的琴弦,虽然我没有试过拉贝拉(LaBella)制作的琴弦。磨光的琴弦是一种扁平化缠绕的弦,其秘密就在绕丝之间,好象有大量的新方法可以达到这个效果。

A-P-L:关于吉他比赛,你持有什么观点呢?你认为吉他比赛对年轻演奏者来说有益么?你支持吉他比赛吗?

JW:别!我基本上不喜欢也不支持任何乐器的比赛。我认为音乐并不能象赛跑一样进行评判——说起来这是显而易见的,会涉及很多的“如果”和“但是”的话题,因为比赛确实帮了一些艺术家的忙,并把公众的注意力吸引到音乐上来。但我特不喜欢许多吉他比赛的举办方式,在每一轮的比赛中都会判出许多不同的费人思量的分数,尤其是对“大奖获得者”进行过度的吹捧,对吉他比赛之于演奏者和吉他演奏活动本身的价值进行过度的炒作。在很多情况下,获胜仅是一种体验而已,还有许多其他的参赛者值得同样的待遇,而不是仅仅由第一名独享。我觉得,挑选一群参赛者进入决赛,让他们每一个都获得同样的奖励和地位,这样更公平。

过去我供职过一些评委会,但在那些日子里我拒绝参加评选活动;我觉得选择这个立场很重要,否则的话你的席位会毫无意义。说了这么多,我知道吉他比赛还是会发生,有时一些赞助还会引起公众的注意和支持。但仍然没有必要走向一个既成的定局——即让每个决赛者精确地排列为1、2、3。我认为,对优秀音乐的庆贺并没有错,而是这些竞争的价值理念不对。我曾经谈到一些想法,即使用与此相异的其他方法建立比赛规则,但目前仍然没有取得任何实质性进展;这可能要会花一些时间。

AP-L:既然如此,那么如果不采用常规的奖励体制,而是采用您所刚才所提到的方法,在澳大利亚这儿举办一场比赛,你会支持吗?

JW:(大笑)你真逗,这好比一个政治家被提问:如果X、Y和Z发生时,人们会支持某些事吗?如果我提的想法先发生了的话,我们且走着瞧!

AP-L:朱里安·布里姆被载入《路上人生》一书,他很高兴到20世纪50年代才走上了吉他舞台,因为这给予他充分的时间去发展适合自己的音乐个性,没有象今天存在的急于求成的压力。你有同感吗?如果你直到今天才初露头角,达到你本来在50年代晚期60年代早期已经达到的那样的成就,你还会有那么自信吗?

JW:我记不起书中的那件事了,但这确实是个很好的观点。毫无疑问,这是正确的。朱利安已经获得了如此显要的发展,如果我也在英格兰踏出他那样的脚步,我想这也许会让我走得更容易些。我同意我们都通过在英国成为佼佼者而感受到更小的压力,然而朱利安和我在某些问题上意见相左。我们是亲密朋友,允许音乐家们的天赋在自己的个性里得到发展,在这一点上我们取得了一致;从某种程度上讲,这可以作对吉他比赛表示保留意见的一个理由。

AP-L:由于你的高超技巧和演奏风格,因此对许多演奏者来说,你是一个吉他偶像。年轻一代的演奏者仅只仿效你的高超技巧,在这个过程中也许忽略了如何挖掘他们自己的音乐个性,这个问题你曾经烦恼过吗?

JW:哦,如果真是那样的话,好遗憾啊。我知道我的技巧和风格被模仿,这是个事实,但如果一个人不去发展自己的音乐个性,那将是每个演奏者面临的一个重大问题。我猜想,我已经幸运到一定程度了,因为从早年开始就练成了良好的技巧,我甚至没有真正想象它会有多难;但对我来讲,技巧总是服务于音乐这个目标而不是服务于技巧本身,对所有音乐家来讲,应当也是这样。我推想,吉他家们都曾经被演奏技巧以及吉他这件乐器的技术层面迷住了,这是吉他历史的一部分。

我注意到,学生们常常对手指的运动全神贯注,对音符却心不在焉,对噪音关注得就更少了;而同时要他们立即在第4弦上迅捷地找到C音(比如说)却很困难。事实上,如果学生们都把我视作“技巧先生”,那么对我也会产生负面影响,因为“技巧先生”通常都不是“音乐先生”!但在过去的5、6年间,吉他家们在加速度地意识到某些非常基本的音乐因素,正在发生着如此多向好的变化,因此这是我将要谈得更多的一个话题。

我在大师班中注意到另一件事,上台演奏者会凭着记忆演奏一些难度最大的独奏作品,然而如果你把一个更简单些的《海顿弦乐四重奏》的其中个声部让他们去演奏的话(我经常这样做),他们立刻找不着北了,而且合奏和节拍的感觉都非常糟糕。吉他家们是我遇到的世界上最差的视奏者。以管弦乐队的标准来说,朱里安·布里姆和我都是表现平平的视奏者;但在吉他家中,我们却是佼佼者。这就是吉他的一个真空,直到最近仍然被可怜地传承着。

AP-L:这就几乎直接进入了我的下一个问题:在您看来,在同样相对缺乏确定的艺术鉴赏家的条件下,吉他本质上就是比其他主要的古典乐器(如钢琴和小提琴)更难演奏的乐器吗?

JW:答案是否定的,基于两点。第一,没有任何乐器比其他乐器更难,因为我们必须建立一套籍以做出判断的标准。甚至即使我让三件乐器演奏同一首作品,比如说巴赫的G小调小提琴赋格,这也无济于事。因为如果我们又将它和李斯特的B小调钢琴奏鸣曲相比,是更难还是更简单呢?显然,在吉他上,李斯特的作品几乎不可能演奏。因此,对每件乐器,我们必须看它所有可演奏的作品。一个6个月大的婴儿很可能在钢琴上敲响一个中央C,但他不可能在吉他上做到这一点,至少要几岁以后;但是,你不可能选他去演奏肖邦和李斯特作品吧?

第二点,加入拨弦技巧的充分准备,去作真正的比较,也是不行的。从基本方面来讲,拨弦准备在吉他上并不比小提琴难,可能甚至更简单;但在某些方面,演奏特定类型的音乐会更难。个人认为,指法和视奏在吉他上一点也比小提琴难。有些人在吉他上控制的音符根本不难,因为他们的手有着强大的自然力量。

A-P-L:你显然就是这些人中的一个……

JW:玩笑开大了,我不是!但这不是因为我练习不够多;与公众想法相反的是,我练习着!如果每天练习5个小时,我本就可以拥有更强健的手指了,但我没有。显然,因为脖子位置和角度的缘故,在小提琴上演奏一些和弦形式很难做到,而且在小提琴上学习第一音阶也是非常尴尬的事情。坦白地说,从吉他演奏家的角度讲,我认为这是一种大大的逃避;不论你深思熟虑与否,确实是一种逃避。所以总而言之,吉他演奏家是糟糕的技巧匠,糟糕的视奏者,糟糕的合奏者,糟糕的听众;他们不了解他们的乐器,正如他们应当了解他们的乐器一样。

正如我所指出,这些事情都在改变着,但仍然适用于相关的视奏问题,这是音乐学院的任何学生都知道的。正由于这个原因,我一直在曼彻斯特北方皇家音乐学院和伦敦皇家音乐学院的合奏团里开大师班课程。乐器的历史给我们留下了吉他这件令人恐怖的遗产,但我们正在学习它,正在改变它。因为我们正在改变它,所以在我看来,吉他正在变成一件更被人们接受的音乐会乐器。

到现在为止,那些允许吉他在合奏乐团演奏的音乐作品,比如博凯里尼五重奏,是相对比较少的,而且还总是为吉他做赔本生意。正是这样,一个吉他学生为了在年终演奏会上演奏它,经常会花费6个月时间仅仅学习吉他声部,真是荒谬!室内乐的整体要点是其可达到性,任何演奏弦乐的学生在决定学习哪一部作品前,将会视奏十多部莫扎特或海顿的四重奏。

正如我指出,在澳大利亚这里以及其他地方,上述情况正在改变着,尤其周陈·苏伯特在墨尔本、剔姆·凯恩(Tim Kain)在堪培拉(先前在曼彻斯特)以及Trinity学院,Paco Pena在西班牙的夏季学校等进行的努力。不同水平层次的答案都很简单,即不要顾及什么标准,从大量可采用的音乐作品目录中,把现存的室内乐作品在其他乐器上演义。例如,文艺复兴时期的合奏曲目,特耳西科瑞舞曲,莫扎特和海顿的四重奏,所有都采用单线形式。也许除了中提琴声部外,大多数乐章可以直接演奏,而且也不需要太大的改编工作。在大提琴声部,你不得不演奏最低调——C的,但这种情况并不多见,而且也不是真正的问题。

我并不是在建议我们应当马上就开始到歌剧院去听四把吉他演奏的莫扎特四重奏,但是这些音乐在提高我所谈到的所有技巧上都具有无法估量的价值。另外,它还帮助吉他演奏家们拓展音乐视野。费尔南多·索尔的音乐有足够的娱性,卡路里的也是,但如果你演奏更早一些的海顿四重奏,兄弟,你可知道你是在演奏伟大的音乐啊!我所遇到的许多仍然在比赛中演奏的吉他家,他们属于更陈旧的吉他学校,他们很少演奏合奏作品;除了一对年轻者,来自德国的,他们都是很好很全面的音乐家。



[此贴子已经被作者于2003-11-22 10:55:27编辑过]

 楼主| 发表于 2003-11-20 20:35:00 | 显示全部楼层
吉他中国抖音
翻译自秋月提供的网页,地址:http://musicteachermag.com/html/article02_john_williams.html

全文很长,也不知道有没有人翻译过。今天先翻译到这,方便不懂英文或不喜阅读英文的朋友。

学识粗陋,估计有多处不当的翻译之处,最重要的是,我害怕误解了大师的原意;因此欢迎英文水平教和吉他及音乐视野较广的朋友指正!

本部分原文:

John Williams. String Selection, the Segovia Significance and Superlative Solos
With Austin Prichard-Levy
  

John Williams needs no introduction to classical guitarists, or indeed fine music lovers the world over; since his debut at the Wigmore Hall in 1958, he has attained enormous popularity with his voluminous recordings in both the classical repertoire and with his rock group, Sky. John was in Australia touring with the Australian Chamber Orchestra for performances of Rodrigo's Aranjuez Concerto and Nourlangie, a new work for guitar, strings and percussion by Peter Sculthorpe. During this visit, Austin Prichard-Levy talked at length to John on topics of particular relevance and interest to classical guitarists, such as string selection, his known dislike of guitar competitions, his ambivalent relationship with Segovia, the impact of his technical prowess on a generation of young players, his views on guitar pedagogy, and his love of the Bach Chaconne, which many regard as his signature piece, such is the authority he has stamped on it with superlative concert performances and recordings.

   
John Williams
  


AP-L:  John, to begin with a prosaic, nonetheless very interesting question for a lot of guitarists, what strings do you currently use on your Smallman?

JW: At the moment, I'm using D'Addario trebles and basses, although the top string is a little heavier than the standard top string they make - I got them to thicken it up a bit. The biggest problem I find is getting the basses right; I often find that with Augustine Reds, for example, the 5th string is a little bit thin, whereas the D'Addario has more body without the brittleness that comes from going up to a higher tension string. Another problem is squeaks - no matter how you rationalize it, they're always there although they can be minimized by both the player and the string manufacturer. I like D'Addario's polished and semi-polished strings, although I haven't tried the ones put out by LaBella. The polished string is a flat wound string, but the secret is in the winding and there seems to be a number of new approaches around to this.

A-P-L: What is your opinion of guitar competitions? Do you think they are good for developing young players, and do you support them?

JW : No, basically I don't like or approve of competitions on any instrument. I don't think music can be evaluated like a race - I know that's an obvious thing to say and that there are many ifs and buts involved, because they do help some artists and concentrate the public's attention on music. But I particularly don't like the way many guitar competitions are run, the confusing way points are awarded differently in each round of a competition, and especially the over-exploitation of the "Big Winner" and the competitive values that puts on players and the activity of guitar playing itself. Winning is a matter of taste in most cases, and there are often many other equally deserving competitors other than just the First Prize recipient. I feel it would be fairer to have a select group of finalists, each of whom receives the same award and status.

I have served on juries in the past, but these days I refuse to take part, and I feel it is important to take that stand otherwise your reservations have no meaning. Having said all that, I know it happens anyway and sometimes there is sponsorship involved which does help the general public interest and support. But it still doesn't need to be a cut and dried thing, where each finalist is ranked as precisely as 1,2,3. I think it is those competitive values that are wrong, not the celebration of excellence in music as such. I have talked about the idea of setting up a competition where this other approach is used, but nothing definite has emerged from it yet; it may take some time to develop.

AP-L: So would you support a competition here in Australia if it were organized along the lines you have indicated rather than the usual prize system?

JW: (laughs) Well, that's like when a politician gets asked whether they will support something if x,y and z happens. Let's wait and see if it occurs first!

AP-L: Julian Bream has remarked in A Life on the Road that he was glad he came onto the guitar scene in the 1950's because it gave him the time to develop a proper musical personality without the pressure to achieve quickly that exists today. Do you feel the same way? Would you feel as confident starting out today as you might have been in the late 50's and early 60's?

JW: I don't remember that from his book, but it's a very good point. There's no doubt that it is true, and Julian has achieved that development magnificently, and I think coming somewhat in his footsteps in England also made it a little easier for me. I suppose both of us have found it less pressured in the UK by being the leading players there and while Julian and I have different attitudes about some things, we are close friends and both of us feel the same about allowing musical abilities to develop at their own pace; to some extent that's a another justification for expressing reservations about competitions.

AP-L: To many players, you are an icon of the guitar, due to the power of your technique and playing style. Has it ever bothered you that a generation of young players have sought merely to emulate your technical prowess and perhaps have neglected discovering their own musical identity in the process?

JW: Well, if it's like that, then it's a pity! I know that that is the case to a point, but if one doesn't develop one's own musical personality, that's a major problem facing any player. I guess I have been lucky to an extent, because having a well formed technique from an early age I haven't really had to think too hard about it, but it has always been at the service of musical goals rather than an end in itself for me, and it should be that way with all musicians. I suppose it is part of the history of the guitar that guitarists have been obsessed both with technique and also the technical aspects of the instrument.

I often notice students preoccupied with fingerings and not notes, much less sounds, and yet at the same time finding it difficult to immediately locate C sharp on the 4th string, say. Of course, if students do see me as Mr. Technique, then that can also reflect negatively on me too, because Mr. Technique isn't usually also Mr. Music! But in the last five years or six years, there has been a very great acceleration in the awareness of some very basic musical facts by guitarists, and that's a topic I would like to talk more about because so much is changing for the better.

Another thing I've noticed in master classes, is that players will come on and play the most difficult solo works from memory, and yet if you give them a part to play in one of the easier Haydn String Quartets, as I often do, they're lost in no time, and have a very poor sense of ensemble or timing. Guitarists are among the worst sight-readers I've come across. Julian Bream and I are both dead average sight-readers by orchestral standards, but among guitarists, we are outstanding! This is an area of the guitar that has been poorly taught up until recently.

AP-L: That leads almost directly to my next question - in your opinion, is the guitar an intrinsically harder instrument to play than the major classical instruments, the piano and violin, given that there is a relative shortage of established virtuosos?

JW: The answer is no, on two counts. No instrument is more difficult than another, because we have to establish by what standards we are making the judgment. Even if we take all three instruments playing the same piece, say the Bach G Minor fiddle fugue, it won't help because if we compare it to the Liszt B Minor Piano Sonata, is it more or less difficult? Obviously, on the guitar the Liszt is going to be impossible, so we have to look at the total repertoire available to each instrument. Yet a 6 month old baby could probably hammer out a middle C on a piano whereas it couldn't do that on a guitar until it was a few years old, but that doesn't make it a candidate to play Chopin and Liszt!

The second point, regarding a true comparison involving note preparation, is also no. In basic respects, note preparation on the guitar is no harder than the fiddle, maybe even easier, but there may be certain aspects that are harder playing certain types of music. Personally, I don't think that fingering or sight-reading is any harder on the guitar than on the violin. Some people don't find holding down notes on the guitar very difficult at all, because they have great natural strength in their hands.

A-P-L: You obviously are one of those people...

JW : Funnily enough, I'm not! But that may be because I don't practise a lot. Contrary to popular belief, I do practise, but not in vast amounts. If I practised five hours a day, I'd have stronger hands, but I don't. Obviously some chord shapes are difficult to get because of the position and angle on the neck, but learning the first scale on the violin is also very awkward to do. Frankly, I think it's a big cop-out on the part of guitarists; deliberate or not, its still a cop-out. So in summary, guitarists are bad technicians, bad sight-readers, bad at playing ensemble, bad listeners and don't know their instrument as well as they should.

These things are all changing, as I have indicated, but still apply regarding sight-reading, as any student at a music college knows. I have been giving master classes in ensemble at the Royal Northern College of Music in Manchester and the Royal College of Music in London for just that reason. It's the history of the instrument that has given us this awful legacy, but we are learning from it and we are changing it. The guitar, in my opinion, is also becoming a more acceptable concert instrument because we are making the change.

Up till now, those works which allow the guitar to play in a chamber ensemble, such as the Bocherini Quintet, are a relative rarity and always make allowances for the guitar. As it is, a guitar student will often spend six months just learning the guitar part in order to play it at the end of year recital, which is ridiculous! The whole point of chamber music is its accessibility, and any student string player would be able to sight-read a dozen Mozart or Haydn Quartets before deciding which one to learn.

Here in Australia and elsewhere, as I have indicated, this is changing, particularly in Melbourne with Jochen Schubert, and Tim Kain in Canberra and previously in Manchester, as well as Trinity College and Paco Pena's summer school in Spain. The answer at all levels is quite simple, irrespective of the standard, is to use existing chamber ensemble for other instruments from the enormous catalogue of music available; for example, the renaissance consort repertoire, the Terpsichore dances, the Mozart and Haydn Quartets, all in single line form. Most of the parts are playable directly, except perhaps for the viola clef, but even that is no great job to transcribe. In the cello part, it isn't very often that you have to play its lowest note, C, but that isn't a real problem.

I'm not suggesting that we should start hearing Mozart Quartets for four guitars at the Opera House, but this music is invaluable in developing all the skills I have been talking about. Another thing is that it also helps to widen the guitarist's musical horizons. Fernando Sor's music is pleasant enough, and Carulli's, but if you play even an early Haydn Quartet, brother, you know you're playing great music! Most of guitarists I meet who play in competitions still belong to the older school of guitar playing where ensemble work is rare, but a couple of the young ones, especially from Germany, are very good all-round musicians.



[此贴子已经被作者于2003-11-23 7:24:10编辑过]

发表于 2003-11-20 21:31:00 | 显示全部楼层
GC视频号
送一朵鲜花。
发表于 2003-11-21 01:07:00 | 显示全部楼层
买琴买鼓,就找魔菇
感谢楼主,非常感谢。。。。。。。。。。
发表于 2003-11-21 02:40:00 | 显示全部楼层
真是很有指导意义的.非常好
头像被屏蔽
发表于 2003-11-21 08:33:00 | 显示全部楼层
提示: 作者被禁止或删除 内容自动屏蔽
发表于 2003-11-21 09:02:00 | 显示全部楼层
不错,汉语表达也很有水平。。。

不过,那个什么叫“伤痕”琴弦?我看了一下原文,wound指的是缠绕吧。jianguo兄笔误了。
发表于 2003-11-21 09:06:00 | 显示全部楼层
JIANGGUO兄,我钱不多,呵呵但也送朵花,谢谢你这样热心!
 楼主| 发表于 2003-11-21 12:13:00 | 显示全部楼层
以下是引用小麦吉他在2003-11-21 9:02:00的发言:
不过,那个什么叫“伤痕”琴弦?我看了一下原文,wound指的是缠绕吧。jianguo兄笔误了。

太好了,谢谢小麦,难怪我总觉得那么别扭,我这就去改过来。

呵呵,鲜花我不想要,希望板砖多一点,这更有助于翻译的完善。
发表于 2003-11-21 13:52:00 | 显示全部楼层
楼主辛苦了!
万分感谢!
发表于 2003-11-21 17:37:00 | 显示全部楼层
乐器的历史给我们留下了吉他这件令人恐怖的遗产,但我们正在学习它,正在改变它。..
原来大师也和我有同感呀。。。。。。。。。。。。如果没有吉他多好。。
 楼主| 发表于 2003-11-22 08:50:00 | 显示全部楼层
小麦兄,如果有空就多多提提意见哦,我会随时纠正……
发表于 2003-11-27 16:58:00 | 显示全部楼层
无比感动和激动!
谢谢你的辛勤劳动!
期待更多......
发表于 2004-1-5 01:58:00 | 显示全部楼层
我覺的约翰·威廉斯的大拇指長的不好看.
发表于 2004-1-12 23:28:00 | 显示全部楼层
wang jianguo 同志劳苦功高。
发表于 2004-1-12 23:38:00 | 显示全部楼层

!!!

精典。。。谢谢建国兄!!!
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